TRANSCRIPT: The Midlife Shift #8: Stephen Huppert and Rachel Lane
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Alex Brooks 0:01
Welcome to the midlife shift, juicy conversations to help you thrive after 50, everybody wants to live better, wants to look better, wants to stay younger.
Opening sequence 0:10
If we are talking about the future, there's nothing better you can do than to make sure that you've got some more.
Opening sequence cont’d 0:17
Oh no, I've got no regrets. Really. Have you lived a life? Join us as we shake things up and talk about the things that matter and maybe a few things that don't
Alex Brooks 0:34
You're watching the midlife shift. We're going to dive into two curve balls that can blow up your retirement. I've got two experts, Rachel lane and Stephen Huppert, here to explain how you can protect yourself. So hit the bell like subscribe and follow the midlife shift, where we have all the juicy conversations about how to thrive after 50. Welcome Rachel and Stephen. Now, Stephen, you're a numbers whisperer, which actually means you're an actuary. And actually no one really knows what an actuary is, but essentially, you help make sense of risk and retirement. Yeah, is that right? That's a really good way to describe it. Yeah. So risk is something that's kind of ramped up in the modern world. Not all of us really understand it, and we don't really have to, but as we move towards retirement, we kind of need to get a better sense of what that is right. And you can articulate the risks with those numbers. And instead of having numbers over here and lifestyle and risk over here, you can kind of help bring them together. Is that a good way to describe it?
Stephen Huppert 1:35
And I think it's really important. And when we talk about risk, a good way to define it, that I like is the risk of not achieving your goals Exactly. So risk doesn't need to always be bad. We can take on risk as a positive because we can achieve certain outcomes, but but it's really important to understand the risks that we're facing and how we can manage and mitigate those risks,
Alex Brooks 1:59
because the two biggest risks, and we've spoken about these before, Rachel, the two biggest risks to disrupt the dream of retirement are really, I think you've said this, it's sort of your health and lifespan issue. So we've got this health span and lifespan stuff coming along, and obviously markets and money and how that performs, because when you're trying to calculate life after full time work gets really confusing for most people who aren't actuaries or financial advisors to work out how this all
Stephen Huppert 2:27
works, right? Well, you're dealing with an unknown. So which is a risk? And that's the that is the risk, because we, none of us, know how long we're going to have to plan for. That's we call that longevity risk, yep. And I describe that as the mother of all risks, because the longer you live, the more those other risks, like health and markets and other things will be more relevant. Okay, so longevity risk, I believe, is one of the first ones you need to think about.
Alex Brooks 2:56
Okay, that's so interesting. And Rachel is an author and advisor of what I call the tricky D words. You know, everything we don't like to call it downsizing. We prefer to call it right sizing correct, because housing is actually a big, big pillar of Australia's retirement income system. But really, let's talk about the other D words no one likes, which is kind of dementia and disease. And you know, that's what happens as health span starts going the other way. But really, what you do is you have a lot of those tricky, awful conversations. Where are
Rachel Lane 3:28
you saying, I'm not a financial advisor anymore, and there's probably very good reasons for that. So those conversations can be really taxing, yeah, yeah.
Alex Brooks 3:38
What? But how do we not make them taxing. How do we have an open conversation that isn't scary about the realities of the risks, right? Yeah, how do we do that?
Rachel Lane 3:48
That's right, and I think it's important to have those conversations early. And I think it's so important to know that a conversation about aged care, that's normally the thing that people are most frightened of.
Alex Brooks 3:59
Let's call it nursing home, because everyone thinks it's a nursing home, and you're, you're lying in a bed, and you know, you can't, you don't have your own independence. But that's not really what's happening anymore, is it?
Rachel Lane 4:11
No, it's not. And I think that's the thing that people need to understand, is that aged care doesn't equal nursing home. So more than 80% of people who receive aged care services don't live in a nursing home. It doesn't mean that they live in the family home. So we've also got to kind of pop that bubble that everyone's living in the family home, and you know, all of those sorts of things they're not necessarily doing that either. A lot of them are downsizing, whether it's in, yeah, Granny flatter retirement community, whatever that might look like for them. But it's really important to know that people who are receiving Aged Care Services, the overwhelming majority, are not living in a residential aged care home,
Alex Brooks 4:52
correct? And I think there was this other piece that we've talked about separately, which is that there are kind of three phases of life after work. So retirement, you know, going and playing lawn bowls or going fishing for the rest of your life the minute you, you know, get your gold watch. That's kind of done and dusted, right? Like we're all living longer, living better, probably combining a bit of paid work, part time work, purposeful work, volunteering, whatever it looks like for everyone, right? That everyone's different. But there's these three distinct phases. So I originally thought there were only two, but Rachel kindly burst my bubble, and I said, there's the GO, GO years, where you're relatively fit and healthy and suddenly you don't have to show up for a boss anymore. And you can, you know, go caravanning around Australia, or you can take the great trip to Europe, and, you know, live the high life. And then there's the go slow years, and that's where your health might not be as good as it used to be, or maybe your mobility is impaired, whatever it might be. But then Rachel politely burst my bubble, and she said, there's the no go years that no one wants to talk about, where there's there might be a bit of life, limiting illness, perhaps, or something else that's a bit ugly and something we don't want to think about. But talk to me, Rachel, about this belief that when we retire, we all just have this delusion that we're just going to live fantastically and then go to sleep one night and die in our
Rachel Lane 6:11
sleep. Yeah, that's right, that's the plan, isn't it for most people, and really is. And sometimes when the topic of age care gets brought up, you know, people advocate very strongly for things that are just completely impossible. So my grandma was a great example. And I heard this back when I was a financial advisor. So many clients would say, Well, you know, when my time comes, just take me out in the back paddock and shoot me, yeah, yes, yes. And this is common. And I said to my grandma, I said, Well, that sounds like a fantastic plan. So you're dead, I've got the guilt of killing you, and then I potentially face the rest of my life in jail for having fulfilled your wishes. Like, have you thought this through? Like, it's not helpful? You know, it doesn't but a lot of people are really frightened of that conversation, and they will simply say whatever they think they need to, to shut it down as quickly as possible.
Alex Brooks 7:02
It's, it's true, right? So, you know, every generation has its, you know, black spot of conversation where they never want to go. You know, for our parents, it was probably the topics of sex and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But now we're talking about the black box of how we end our lives.
Rachel Lane 7:17
And that generation was very much, I don't want to be a burden, correct,
Alex Brooks 7:21
correct. And I mean, I interviewed Denise Drysdale, very funny lady, and she was saying she wants the Dunlop pillow whenever she requires. It is her demand for life, right? She's like, while I'm living, I say, when I live, and then bring on the Dunlop pillow when it's necessary. And we do have this delusion now, because we have voluntary assisted dying laws, and we've come a long way in the last 10 years, but none of us really want to have this frank conversation and talk to me. I mean, you guys specialize in this phase of life. What do you typically see when we're talking about the end of life? So go, go years. All very happy. Everyone's like Yeehaw, popping the champagne bottles, having a nice well,
Rachel Lane 8:01
not necessarily, actually, there's a lot of people who get to the Go Go years, and because they're so terrified of running out of money, they actually don't do the things that they should do in the Go Go years. Because they say, well, well, we have steak tonight. Or will we have beans on toast? Or we better have beans on toast, because just in case, yeah. So, you know, so a lot of people because they haven't planned, and because they haven't understood their longevity risk, and because they don't necessarily understand their investment risks that well, they they actually don't make the most of the Go Go years. I mean, the GO, GO years should be exactly as you described, and they should, you know, really go, Yeah, but a lot of people don't,
Stephen Huppert 8:42
yeah, no, that's very true. And will? Actuaries tend to call that self insurance, yes. So you're and you're putting aside money just in case. Okay, and so there's been, and there's a lot of bit of controversy in the superannuation industry. How big a problem this is? That's right, but the government's put out some reports saying it is a big problem. It is a
Rachel Lane 9:03
lot of people are actually dying with more significant than they retire with. It's ridiculous. So terrified of running out of money.
Stephen Huppert 9:10
We need to help people understand the potential longevity lifespan, but also we need to differentiate between lifespan and health span. That's right, exactly. We've made some great improvements in lifespan over the last 50 Years health spans. So that's where we have to do a lot of lot more investment.
Alex Brooks 9:34
And it's the health span issue that sort of is the window between go go and go slow, right? Like your health span is a gradual change, commonly, but for some people, it's really a Brooks, right? Very sudden. It's a terrible diagnosis a fall, and often it's having a rushed conversation in a hospital car park. The other part
Stephen Huppert 9:54
of that, though, before you retire, yeah, it's also a major thing, so a significant. Number of Australians retire before they play in I have seen this with the ABS figures. Yeah, that's right, and sometimes it's through their own ill health, yeah, so they
Alex Brooks 10:10
can't keep working or a carer, or having to
Stephen Huppert 10:14
become a carer for somebody else, for their part. So some of the challenge, Rachel, that you talked about, of age care, there's really a double barrel issue there. Because if I'm about approaching retirement, mid 60s, it's not my own aged care. I'm concerned about it's my parents aged care. I'm concerned about
Rachel Lane 10:31
so and then you've also got the 25 or 30 year old kids moving back home because they can't afford to buy a house, and so all of a sudden you're doing more washing than ever and cooking more meals than ever at the same time you're going hang on a minute.
Stephen Huppert 10:47
What happened? Hence the term sandwich generation? Yeah, that's exactly right.
Alex Brooks 10:51
And it's a very real one, yeah. And so in terms of, like, if we talk about Go, go years and go slow, just just this transition, what sort of ages have you seen this move into because everyone's different, right? But I've seen bandied around. You know, go, go. You need to be planning pretty much from maybe 60 to 75 should be your go, go. Years. Is that a good ballpark or a guide? What do you think?
Stephen Huppert 11:15
Steve, Well, I'll give you an actuarial answer. Of course you will so. And when we come to talk a bit about life expectancy calculations and that a bit later, I'll talk about that. But the the averages are useful, yep, but you have to be very careful about the floor of averages, the fallacy of average. Yes, that's the actuary. So that's that's really important. So as a financial advisor, it's really important to start with the averages, but then take into account the personalization,
Alex Brooks 11:45
personalize and optimize to you, right? Which is sort of what we all need to do as we move towards whatever our retirement looks like, because mine would be different to yours, which is different to yours, and that's how it should be. It's just that we don't really know how to have the honest conversations all the honest expectations I think about when's the right time? Because the right time for Go Go might not be the same for you as it is for me, and that's all okay as well.
Stephen Huppert 12:11
And I think you've raised a really important point. It's having those conversations. So for financial advisors, or superannuation funds, or any of the calculators around, get across to people that it is only an average and also get across to people that these are difficult things to think about, but you absolutely got to start thinking about and earlier, Rachel, you said, the earlier the better. Yep. So start engaging with people in their mid 50s, not their mid 60s. That's critical too, because when you get to your mid 60s, it's all overwhelming, because, you know, there's so many What am I going to do when I finish work? How am I going to afford this? Where am I going to live? How am I going to
Alex Brooks 12:53
and you've talked about this risk, right? Because the biggest risk, as we identified before, is that you underspend because then you can't make your go go years as good as they can be, right? That's, that's a that's actually a big risk. Or you are outlive your money. That's the other risk. And in your work, what do you typically see, like, what's the reality for people who might be moving into the go slow years? What age is sort of happening? What sort of risks do you face if you are in the Go slow years and you haven't maybe had the conversation early enough. Well, I
Rachel Lane 13:25
think there's a there's sort of a window of time for people where they can downsize. And you know, housing really is pivotal to so many other decisions. Yeah, it really will influence how much money you've got to invest or spend. It will really influence things like your age pension and rent assistance entitlements. It will impact on the means testing, arrangements for your home care or residential aged care if you move in there, it will impact on your estate planning. It really where you live really does have huge knock on effects to your financial situation.
Alex Brooks 14:06
But most young people who can't afford to buy a house just quietly, but most young people truly believe the financial goal is just to end up owning your own home and in a mortgage free way, which is kind of what previous generations did quite commonly, but that's for
Rachel Lane 14:23
someone who's 30 Exactly. That's really not a, not a bad goal. I don't, I don't think that we necessarily need to have sort of, yeah, I don't know that we need to kind of, but let's talk about
Alex Brooks 14:39
the housing options. When you move from Go, go to go slow, because that's actually the window where you can use housing to mitigate a lot of your risks potentially, but
Rachel Lane 14:48
you can also use housing to improve your health. Talk to me about that. Well, a lot of people will say, before they have any care needs, they'll say, Well, I'm going to stay in the family home. Forever and ever. Amen. You know, they can carry me out in a pine box,
Alex Brooks 15:03
pillow rifle out the back, but
Rachel Lane 15:07
the reality is that people are not looking at their home through the glasses of somebody who needs care. So they're not looking at and if, and they may be saying this when they have a partner, and when the time comes that they need care, they may have lost their partner, so they're not looking at the social isolation that that home can cause, which is huge. We know that social isolation, in terms of health impact, is as bad as smoking a packet of cigarettes a day. Now no one's smoking a packet of cigarettes going this is good for my health, but no one seems to be that concerned about social isolation and the impact it can have on your health. It's really, it really should be a concern for people. So there's that, then there's also the physical environment. So very few homes built
Alex Brooks 15:57
for the aging in place and aging in place, which is this sort of mythical thing that we all delude ourselves that our home is going to let us do right.
Stephen Huppert 16:06
So why not use some of the value in your home to modify it to age in place? So you
Alex Brooks 16:11
can definitely do that, but you can also there's now a whole range of new financial type products where you can use your home equity in different ways, shapes and firm way shapes and forms to keep, maintain the Go, go, use just that bit longer, right?
Rachel Lane 16:28
But with my, you know, money hat, because you there's, there's a couple of things to think about with that. So the first thing is, well, not, not every home modification is possible, yes. So in some cases, doors can't be made any wider than they are, or hallways can't be made any wider, or bathrooms can't be made any more accessible. But the other thing is, it won't necessarily overcome the social isolation issue. And then thirdly, which is the big money thing that no one ever seems to think about with this is sure you access $100,000 to modify your home? Yep. What have you done to the value of your home, assuming the next person doesn't want grab rails, grab rails and ramps and all of those things
Alex Brooks 17:15
that make great ugliness of aging in place, right? You've actually
Rachel Lane 17:19
devalued the property, because through the eyes of someone who doesn't need those things, those things are actually liabilities. They're things that they're going to have to pay to fix. Yeah, so that's one of the things that I think people need to be aware of. It is not just the cost of doing those things. It is also the impact that it has on the value of the asset when you go to sell it. Now, if that home is going to go under a bulldozer, no matter what, then it doesn't matter. But if that home has a value, you have pulled the value of that home down potentially.
Stephen Huppert 17:50
I think the point that you've really highlighted there, Rachel, and that'll probably come through a lot of our conversation. It's about understanding the pros and cons. Yeah, there's no silver bullet here. There's no and a lot of people talk about, how do I optimize? And my response is, there's no such thing as optimization. There's trade offs, yeah, and when we get to talk about different products in retirement, there are trade offs. When we talk about, what are you going to do with your house, where you're going to live, there are trade offs. I mean, on the social isolation, I absolutely agree that loneliness is one of the biggest. It's terrible. It's terrible, yeah, if you're still relatively mobile and can get out and about a little bit staying in your home and you're in the same neighborhood, yeah. So connection, there's trade offs
Rachel Lane 18:33
Well, do you because a lot of stories I hear that the neighbors, the older people in the neighborhood. Don't know the younger people in the neighborhood. They drive into the garage, the roller door comes down, and they never see them. They never speak to them. It's not it doesn't have that same community.
Alex Brooks 18:51
Let's talk about some of the housing options, because I think most of us just think you have to have a mortgage free home, and that's the option, and then you go into a nursing home, which is all wrong. No, that's not the truth, right? There's only 200,000 or so residential aged care places in Australia. A lot of reform and changes in that system, which we can maybe get to a bit later. But the reality is, we don't go from our house into a nursing home anymore. That's that's the minority of people will do that. And the people that do need to go into residential aged care, they often actually need to be in residential aged care, right? Yeah, and
Rachel Lane 19:22
I don't think we want to demonize residents, because a lot of the particularly the new age care homes, are far more like a six star hotel than they are whatever you know, whatever the visual image people have got, listening to this and thinking about the words nursing home, whatever they're picturing, is probably very, very different to what's on offer.
Alex Brooks 19:43
So let's talk about those housing options, though. So when you don't have to own your own home anymore, and you might, you know, you might have stairs, and maybe you can't, no, cut the stairs the same way you used to when your bathroom can't be modified to have someone come in and help you in the bathroom. What other options? So we've talked about retirement. Communities, you know, land lease communities, Granny Flats like talk me through those options and how they work in Australia.
Stephen Huppert 20:06
Well, a colleague of mine recently retired, and he moved out of his multi acre place into a into a retirement community, I think is the right. I'm not sure even what the right term is for that none of us have. But, you know, they've got their own house, but they're part of a community. He's got involved in activities. Every time I speak to him, he's having a ball. Yeah, he's been voted on the community now. And, of course, all of that sort of stuff,
Alex Brooks 20:32
like Melrose Place for the and, you know, coming back
Stephen Huppert 20:36
to the social isolation he is, so he and his wife is so well connected now, and but you've got to make it. Make an effort. Yeah, I've got another colleague who's retired down to his where he had his holiday place down at the tree change, and he was saying to me, or not long after he moved in, it's so different from when I was there as a vacation, as a weekend, and he's had to again, he and his wife have made a real effort to join the local bridge club, the local men shared and all of that, and he's thriving.
Alex Brooks 21:08
But Rachel explained that, you know, the trip the tree change and sea change vision that many Australians have, and they think that's going to be their Go, go years. We're going to go to the great beach house that we adore and have had many great holidays with but it actually isn't always as good as people seem to think. Right? Talk me through the issues. I think it is
Rachel Lane 21:28
important for people, if they're thinking about making a tree change or a sea change, to visit those places at other times of the year, because places that are beautiful
Alex Brooks 21:37
at the peak of summer empty, what you're looking
Rachel Lane 21:41
for, you know, in
Stephen Huppert 21:43
the days of winter and the people you see there during the summer that you've maybe play golf with or whatever there, yeah, is the local community, a community you want to be part of. But again, it's going into it with open eyes, understanding the pros and cons.
Alex Brooks 21:56
And how expensive is it to unravel a tree change or sea change?
Rachel Lane 22:00
It can be very expensive to unravel. And one of the big things that people don't factor in is that when you move so sometimes people think about the property market as being this homogenous, singular market that
Alex Brooks 22:14
always makes money. Of course, absolutely yes, endlessly printing checks.
Rachel Lane 22:18
Yes, people, that's right, and it all goes up at the same rate, yeah, whereas in reality, the property, I mean, the property market is fragmented, as you know,
Alex Brooks 22:26
yeah, that's right, yeah, as any any other market. Think about it. Think about your
Rachel Lane 22:31
house, and think about what your house might be worth five kilometers down the road. And then you understand, well, hang on a minute. That's not the same. So sometimes what you'll see is in these regional or far flung places that are very beautiful and picturesque, the property market doesn't move in line with capital cities. And so you can get a situation where you've moved there and then when you want to move back, that your house hasn't kept pace with houses in the market that you want to and you're priced out of that market. And there's
Alex Brooks 23:05
also an issue, because in tree change and sea change areas, it takes a lot longer to sell a house it can and typically, if you are looking at one of those health crisis moments, which is often why you might need to sell or change where you live, you know you need to do something fairly quickly sometimes. And the
Stephen Huppert 23:23
other aspect there that you mentioned health, if you're been living in the suburbs, or your medical support, your specialists, your GP, are all part of your community, and you suddenly pick yourself up and go somewhere else. Do you keep on coming back to Melbourne for your specialist visit. Do you try and find someone more locally? Is there a regional town in the area that might have the hospital services you need? So again, it's a very broad range of issues to consider.
Rachel Lane 23:53
And some people plan to retire, and you've probably heard about this, and they intend to live on a cruise
Alex Brooks 23:58
ship. Oh, yes.
Rachel Lane 24:02
And I remember being on a cruise ship many years ago now, three generation trip. It was my mum, my grandmother and myself, one cabin. Anyway, I still have an eye twitch whenever I talk about it, but it was a lot of fun. But there was someone who had a medical episode, and I remember it took them two and a half hours to get a helicopter out to the cruise ship and medevac them. And I thought, gee, you really don't want to need emergency on a cruise ship, on a cruise ship. So if that's your plan, that's all right, as long as you understand, coming back to the thing about risks, as long as you understand the risk is that if you have there is a serious risk that you may not be able to get medical attention in time. Should you need it?
Alex Brooks 24:46
Those cruise ships have morgues on board for a reason. I know,
Rachel Lane 24:49
no, no, they do, because so funny. So my grandmother celebrated her birthday while we're on the cruise ship, and they brought out the birthday cake and it. Said, Happy Birthday Lorna, and my grandma's name was Jean. We said, oh, about being all you know, we were all excited. And so we were like, well, we'll take the cake to Lorna, and we'll all sing Happy Birthday to Lorna. Then we'll come back to our table and we'll sing Happy Birthday to Jean.
Alex Brooks 25:17
And the waiter was my story already.
Rachel Lane 25:20
Don't talk about, I have a quiet word room on this. I said, what's going on? He goes, horn is dead.
Alex Brooks 25:29
Okay, that'll burst your cruise ship. Go, go. Years dream, right? Yeah, but there's this other dream, but that's when I found out they have morgues on board. Yeah. It's quite alarming, isn't it? But the other retirement bubble that a lot of people, especially in their 50s, have this dream about when they, you know, sitting back having a champagne with their friends and like, let's all buy some acres. Oh,
Rachel Lane 25:51
Lord, possibly go wrong and
Alex Brooks 25:54
a cleaner, and we'll just do it together. Won't it be good? It will be wonderful. So can you talk about how that bubble needs to be burst before you go too far down the track of dreaming it? Well, no, I've actually
Rachel Lane 26:07
got a really great example of that in the book called The Shedders. And so there are lots of people who have that dream, and there are some who go through with it. That's right. But there are a lot of things to think about so things to think about. What are risks, right?
Stephen Huppert 26:23
Well, that's a really important point and but the way you've phrased it is slightly different. Lot of things to think about. So you don't have to have use the word risk when you're having the conversation. I'm happy to use it. But some people considerations or what could go wrong here exactly, and if that went what's the worst case that might happen?
Rachel Lane 26:44
Ultimately, what you're doing is you're establishing a contract with all of those people that you're happy about. Yeah. So you need to think about things like, Well, what happens if one person became ill? What happens if one person passes away? What if one couple want to get out of that arrangement. Can they sell their portion to somebody else? Can they leave that in their will to their children? Yeah, you know. Or is because sometimes people don't think about this. And then when that happens, when, when someone the kids go, but hang on a minute, mum and dad had this interest, and I want my inheritance. They've left it to us, and it's, oh, yes, well, you'll get that when the last one of us shows off. Yeah, that could be decades away on pillows. So Wow, it really can cause a lot of issues.
Stephen Huppert 27:35
Yeah, and what you've just described, there is a risk management process, yeah? So it is so so understand what could go right, what could go wrong? If this happened, how would I respond? Then you're able to make an informed decision, and you might decide, after all of that, actually, I love these couples so much, we're still going to do it, but we know what could go wrong, and we're ready
Rachel Lane 27:58
for it. The far more common example of that is granny flat arrangements.
Alex Brooks 28:03
Yes, talk about granny flat. Yeah. So very interesting, right? That's great,
Rachel Lane 28:07
right? The kids sit there and they go home. This is great. Mum's moving in. We've got a live in babysitter. You book the restaurant, let's go Saturday night. So and mom thinks, Well, clearly I'm up for the mother of the Year award because my kids want to look after me forever and ever, amen, and at some point those expectations are going to clash. So you do. And one of the great things so one of the things that people don't know about granny flat arrangements is that they can be subject to capital gains tax, correct, and it can be considered what's called a D 1c g t event. D 1c g t you're the actor. So a D 1c g t event is when you're considered to have both purchased and disposed of an asset on the same day. So the problem with that is that most of us are used to dealing with capital gains tax on assets that we've held for more than 12 months, so we get the 50% discount this. You're considered to have bought it and sold it same day. There is no 50% discount, so all of it can be subject to CGT. So normally, when people find out about this, it's the children, yeah, they're doing their tax return, and all of a sudden, there's an extra $300,000 in their taxable income for the year because of the granny flat arrangement they set up with mom and everyone.
Alex Brooks 29:28
That's a lot that's expensive babysitting.
Rachel Lane 29:34
So one of the good things mum, here's the bill. The ATO have created a set of criteria for having a CGT exemption for your granny flat arrangement, because this was catching people by surprise, and part of that criteria is that you must have a written agreement. Okay, so. That solves a lot of the problems to do with Granny Flat arrangements, because historically, people didn't have a range, didn't have any because you don't have a contract with family, right? But guess what? No one looks at a contract until this whole thing turns
Stephen Huppert 30:16
then
Rachel Lane 30:18
they're reaching for the bottom draw going, hang on, what are my rights? What are my responsibilities here? So it's really important, and we've got a checklist in the book that talks about, what are the things you need to think about. So think about what happens if the kids get sick? What happens if the kids get divorced? Yeah, that's isn't it? Is there a mortgage on the property? What happens if the kids default on their mortgage? What happens if Mum needs aged care? You know, who does what? Who pays for what it can be little things like the water bill, yeah, and it can be huge. Things like mum needing help to have a shower, yeah, totally and totally reasonable. Things like the kids might want to go on holidays once a year. That's not unreasonable, but if you haven't thought about it and thought about, well, what happens under those circumstances? Because this is more than just a Sunday roast, people think that this is, you know, just like when mum comes over for Sunday roast, and it's not, and it's a completely different
Alex Brooks 31:15
dynamic, yeah, totally Yeah, because they're completely different all the time, right?
Rachel Lane 31:20
And, well, I mean, a granny flat arrangement can be anything. It doesn't even have to be a separate dwelling, no. And, in fact, a lot of the granny flat arrangements that I've seen are where kids move in with mum, and mum transfers the house to the kids for a granny flat, right? To keep living there. Ah, okay, so yeah, a lot of the time there actually is no construction of anything. It's just the transfer of a property.
Alex Brooks 31:46
So it's just the name for this kind of arrangement. And the other thing I wanted to raise, and I want to get onto lifespan and health span stuff, but you talked about collaborative housing as well. So we talked about the dream of living with your friends. But there's a lot of new collaborative housing type arrangements springing up, especially in cities like Melbourne and Sydney, probably Brisbane as well. Talk to me about what they mean and what they are.
Rachel Lane 32:10
Well, collaborative housing, I guess we used to, we used to call it hippie commune, and we can't call it that anymore, because they've gone vertical, like every other form,
Alex Brooks 32:23
they're high rise, yeah, that's right, with a green wall,
Unknown Speaker 32:26
that's right,
Alex Brooks 32:27
yeah.
Rachel Lane 32:30
But still the same concept, where you have a small living space of your own, so bedroom, lounge room, perhaps a small kitchenette, and then you share dining spaces, you share laundry spaces, you share kitchens, you share gardens. A lot of them share bikes, cars, gardening tools. So it's the same concept, but
Alex Brooks 32:54
so it's a different type of retirement community, isn't it a collection? And what you've
Rachel Lane 32:57
got to think about is the Is this what I want do I want to have this level of engagement with everyone? In some cases, you can't just sell that home to anyone you want, of course, because that's what makes the community,
Stephen Huppert 33:13
yeah. So what this highlights is we are going to see more and more innovation coming into this space. So I know in some of the university towns in in the US, for example, retired academic staff can stay on in their but have some sort of volunteer office. Well, in their in their residential, there'll be residences on campus so they can stay on, yeah, so they can stay on, or there will be some housing not far away. But part of the it's owned by the university, and I can't remember the exact details, but part of the arrangement is they do tutoring and volunteer stuff for so again, it's trying to come up with different individual ways and saying, you know, there's no one size fits all, and we need to use a little bit of lateral thinking. The hippie type. Communes might work for some, the joint community, you know, the buying together. Might the tree change? Might be good for others, granny flat, it's not one size fits all. No, it's not. And also, you know, we've talked a lot about, as you age, your your ability, your activities, change, your housing environments will change. That's what's good now for the next five years or 10 years, may gradually or suddenly be very, very different when you get to 80.
Alex Brooks 34:32
That's exactly right. And let's talk a little bit about this lifespan and health span stuff. So at Citro, we talk a lot about using the retirement calculators to help sort of accumulate your way to retirement and work out what your number might be, right, which is a very different phase of financial planning to what you need to do after you've accumulated. When we're talking Go, go, go slow and maybe no go. But let's talk a little bit about the lifespan and health span calculators. Because Stephen, I know you, I've. Asked you about these before, and you've got a couple of good ones, or better than average ones, because you can google your way to anything, oh, yes, calculators, and statistically, you never die. If only that was the truth and you didn't have to pay for it.
Stephen Huppert 35:16
Well, I'll flip it on his head a bit. What you're saying statistically, everybody's got 100% probability
Alex Brooks 35:22
of dying. Yeah, that's okay. That's an actual longevity type.
Stephen Huppert 35:26
So there's a couple of things with the calculators what you're talking about. First of all, let's think about the calculators that will project how much you need, yes, or what lump sum will I have when I retire? Financial there's some real challenges I have with them. First of all, if all they do is present a lump sum at retirement. So if I'm a 45 year old, and it tells me I'm going to have, and especially if people start work today, they're going to be receiving 12% for life. That's right, so that's a significant contribution into their superannuation fund. So I might be a 45 year old, it tells me I have one point, I'll have $1.2 million when I retire. What does that
Alex Brooks 36:03
mean? It means nothing when you're 27 right? And no, I don't I don't know.
Stephen Huppert 36:07
I don't care what my lump sum is. I want to know what my income will be, and what can I watch income? That's right. So the first thing is, and unfortunately, not enough superannuation funds put income projections on yo. You'll get your annual statement each year, and it'll probably tell you what your projected retirement balance is. Yeah, they should be putting on what your projected income is,
Alex Brooks 36:27
because that would help people picture it better, wouldn't That's right, and that's right. That's all it is. It's about helping people bring it to life so they can start having the conversations earlier about the reality
Stephen Huppert 36:37
and the illustrations of that. Yeah, so that's the first part. Then when I get to retirement and I start on a plan, well, okay, I've got my money, yeah, what? How am I going to spend it? How long will it last? And that's the really big question. And there's two. How long will it last? Is one, yeah. But how confident do you want to be that your plan will last as long as you do? Is another one. And it comes down to the level of confidence, and again, some of these terms that we use, like probability, statistics, levels of confidence, aren't intuitive. You know, we don't do enough to teach those sorts of concepts at school. So we one of the problems is that we use all those terms in our calculators, and the average person looking at it. What does it mean?
Alex Brooks 37:23
What is it? The Fallacy of averages, again, Right? Steve, correct. And if we talk about lifespan and life tables, so Stephen sort of blew my mind when he explained that life tables and mortality risk is not the same as like the average age that people live to. And I went, Oh, hang on, because we know, you know, women live longer than men. I'll give you an
Stephen Huppert 37:43
example. If you're walking along through the through having a bit of a hike through the bush, and you come to a river, and the sign says average depth 80 centimeters. You think, oh, well, I could walk through that. Average Depth is 80 centimeters. It doesn't tell you that there's a three meter hole in the middle.
Alex Brooks 38:01
Currents running really, so sweep your so
Stephen Huppert 38:04
if that's absurd, picking up a life table and saying, If you google now live till 92 if you Google average life expectancy in Australia, you'll probably get a number, say, 82 Yeah, or 8282 days. First of all, that number will be average life expectancy at birth, okay?
Alex Brooks 38:24
And I Yeah, the older you get, the longer you're gonna, yeah,
Stephen Huppert 38:28
that's right. I just did an article on that a couple of days ago, actually, because it's important to remember that we need not average life expectancy at birth, but average life expectancy for a 65 year old.
Alex Brooks 38:41
And this is where the numbers are really interesting, because if, if you're a 65 year old woman, so Citro is largely a female leadership you have a 50% chance if you're 65 today, you have a 50% chance of living to 91 is kind of what you what, what your chart previously told me.
Stephen Huppert 38:59
And I'll put some caveats on that number as well, which we have to do, because that's based on the Australian life tables. Yep. That get published by the Australian Government, actually every five years, and they're based on numbers that have happened in the past. So they're based on looking backwards, yeah, so whenever you're using a calculator, yeah, yeah. I want the one of the key takeaways. And I remember we talked about this when we spoke, yeah, have a look at the assumptions. Correct. Absolutely. What are they doing? Are they just using the Australian life tables average? And if they are, walk away from that. Don't use that some when, when the government actually puts out the life tables every five years. He'll also do some calculations about improvements. Yes. So some, some of the calculators will use not the average life tables as they are, but the average life tables adjusted for improvement factors.
Rachel Lane 39:54
Okay, so that is like when you get your council rates notice and it says your home value, yes, but the improved value.
Stephen Huppert 40:02
Use that you need to look at the fine print on a calculator and understand. And if you don't understand it, ask, yeah, it is critical.
Alex Brooks 40:10
And don't ask chat, GPT and don't well.
Rachel Lane 40:13
But there are good longevity. There are some around.
Alex Brooks 40:17
Search for for a good so depending
Stephen Huppert 40:19
on what you're after. So the Optum pensions lifespan calculator, which I'm involved a bit with, what that will do. It won't look at money at all, but it looks at you as an individual, asks you a handful of health
Alex Brooks 40:34
questions, if you smoke, you're probably not going to live.
Stephen Huppert 40:37
And then, based on actuarial data, we'll work out what that will mean for your expected life, for your expected future lifespan.
Alex Brooks 40:46
And this is the issue, right? Because when you're doing the financial planning of retirement, you kind of need to know what's your GO, GO versus go, slow window
Stephen Huppert 40:55
and and then into Nico coming back. You use the number 91 as a 50% Yeah, chance. 50% of women age 65 will live to 91 or beyond. And so 5% will live to 96 but flip that round and say, If I plan to live to 91 so if I do all my calculations, and I can spend X out here because I'm going to live to 91 there's a 50% chance, you'll live longer than that, and your plan will fail. I'll run out of money. And so, as people might say to me, Oh, we want to be 100% sure. Okay, plan to 105 Yeah.
Alex Brooks 41:32
And I think we looked at the Mercer calculator when we were talking Yeah, which is the one that does. It shows you the longest. So it's probably the only one on the Australian market that does go away, however
Stephen Huppert 41:44
I might be, well, I don't need to be 100% confident. I'd be quite comfortable being 80% 80% confident. So what age should I plan for if I want to be 80% confident?
Alex Brooks 41:55
So what age should you plan for? Guys? We need answers, because not all of us are as good with numbers as you are
Stephen Huppert 42:00
if, if you know you mentioned the number of 91 for 50% for that same 65 year old woman. If I choose 96 Yeah, then there's a 75 75% chance. So there's only a 25% chance. I'll likely live my plan, okay? And I might say, okay, 25% chance, one in four. No, I'd rather be more comfortable. So then I might say, well, I need to plan for 99
Alex Brooks 42:28
to be 10% of us are going to live to 99 or beyond, but, but there's trade offs. Of course there
Stephen Huppert 42:35
are. So I think
Rachel Lane 42:36
you don't spend as much money in the guy
Stephen Huppert 42:40
or or you consider a financial product that will guarantee an income for life. Now we're going to talk about that, and that's an
Alex Brooks 42:48
alternative. So a lot of people don't they just think, you get this magical number, and you look at this thing that we've called the ask for retirement standard before, this sort of one size fits all. It's a blunt tool, but it helps people understand what to spend. But talk to me about your concerns about the ask for retirement standard, because it's worth understanding what that retirement standard really means. And not a lot of us really do right
Stephen Huppert 43:11
and and most superannuation funds and many financial advisors will use it, yep. So the question is, how do I measure how well, I'll live in retirement. And there's a number of different ways of doing it. One could be what we call a replacement rate. I'd like to live on 60% of what I was earning while I was working. Okay, yeah, your expenses are lower, etc. So one of the ways we'll do it is say, well, let's, let's work out what a nice replacement rate might be, 60% 70% whatever. Another one is, do it reverse and work out a budget and say, here's what I think I'll spend well. And what, as far as done, though, is helped you with
Alex Brooks 43:52
that. That's right, and that's what that tool does. That's right. So just to, just to clarify, the retirement standard currently says by age 67 a couple might need 690k as their super number.
Stephen Huppert 44:04
Step back from that, okay, the first thing they say is not you'll need 690k it's how much per year you need. That's right. So they that should be your starting point. A couple
Alex Brooks 44:13
needs 74,000 a year, and a single needs 52,000 a year for the comfortable lifestyle. So comfortable and modest. So what as for does is have a whole a bit like what they do with CPI. They have a whole basket of goods, that's right. And every quarter they'll review the cost of those goods and services and say, at the moment, it's 69,000 or whatever number 52,000 now there's it's important to understand what's in those goods Exactly. Is it my lifestyle doesn't match youth. How many haircuts are in that? Because I actually do have haircuts or new cars or and travel visiting my grandchildren in the UK and cinema? How often? So that's the first thing, but it's a really, really useful starting point. Yeah, the other great. Criticism of the as for standard until now has been that it doesn't include how cost of housing it assumed you
Rachel Lane 45:06
had, if you paid off your house, then it's free from there. That's right, yeah, need a new roof that
Stephen Huppert 45:16
was included in the that's included,
Alex Brooks 45:18
but
Stephen Huppert 45:20
give credit to as far? No, it's a day. They've released a new version just recently. Correct that has actually two standards, one if you're renting, and one, if you own your own your own home. So that's a really good start. So absolutely use that as a guide. So again, don't just use one number. So look at a replacement rate, oh, 60% 70% of my income. Then I'll look at the as for numbers and see what they say. And then I'll come up with a number that's relevant for me.
Alex Brooks 45:51
And the new renting number that as for suggests is, if you're a couple who are going to rent and you are comfortable with what's called the modest lifestyle, which is very bare bones, not a lot of health insurance, not a lot of haircuts, definitely, not a lot of travel. You will need 385,000 as a couple, or 340,000
Stephen Huppert 46:11
as a single so you can sort of see, I'll pick you up again. Yeah? Start with the income amount so they don't have that, and that's for retirement. That's an issue, yeah, because to talk lump sums is very can be very misleading, yeah, because we don't know what they're How long are they planning for? Products are used? That's right, what assumptions have
Alex Brooks 46:32
been used, all of that. So things that make my number.
Stephen Huppert 46:35
But so that would be one of my very important recommendation. Look at annual income. And let's
Alex Brooks 46:42
talk a little bit about the products, because this is the other weird thing about, you know, everyday people sort of trying to think 20 years into the future with this mythical thing called superannuation and age pension and all this kind of blow your brains out number crunching. There's different types of financial products that can deliver you that income, right? Yeah. So we've talked about account based pensions, which is where your $690,000 lump sum will turn into a annual income, which will gradually. And this is the other thing most Australians don't understand. It will gradually the age pension might come into play as well, and the concessions that come with that might come into play, or they might not, which would leave you in a very different position at 91 to someone who is on the age pension and qualifying for everything.
Stephen Huppert 47:24
So there's two parts of that. So let's focus on the narrow superannuation bit, and then we'll expand that. Okay, a lot of people don't understand the options when they retire with their super fund. Most super funds in Australia will only offer you two options, 100% lump sum, or an account based pension or a mixture of the two. Okay, an account based pension is a draw down product, so it transfers the money from your accumulation phase into what we call the account based pension phase. There's tax advantages of doing that, because the income earned on that is tax free zero. And one of the things that we've seen in the data a lot of people staying in the what's called the accumulation phase, which is not tax free, even though they're retired, so they're leaving money on the table. So that's the first thing, because they just don't know. They don't know. They don't know.
Alex Brooks 48:19
And that's why you need financial advisors who specialize in a different phase of things, or superannuation.
Rachel Lane 48:26
Yeah, exactly. Doing the right guidance fund just needs to do the best thing.
Stephen Huppert 48:31
By the way we see, you've turned this age. Here's here's the options you've got.
Alex Brooks 48:35
They don't always do that. Why do you think they don't do that at the moment?
Stephen Huppert 48:39
That I could go with that's a huge other podcast. So they're the two choices. I was speaking to an actuary in Canada a couple of days ago, and she was aghast that you actually take 100% lump
Alex Brooks 48:52
sum. Oh, really.
Rachel Lane 48:54
Countries you can't do that wax, they only have there to provide for your retirement.
Alex Brooks 48:59
That's stop you bludgeon off the state, right? Like, oh, that's the idea,
Stephen Huppert 49:03
isn't it? So Superannuation is designed to complement the age pension. That's right. And and the intergenerational report that came out a few years ago shows it's doing a good job. Yeah, so the cost of the age pension is decreasing, is projected to decrease to the government, well,
Rachel Lane 49:19
per person, yes, but not globally, the actual cost of the pension. So there are more part pensioners than full pensioners, yes, but the actual cost of the age pension is not going down, no, correct, because of the baby boomers,
Stephen Huppert 49:36
but so. So the first thing is, they're the they're the only choices most super funds offer you and remote an account based pension could run out before you're ready. That's exactly or the other thing that happens that we talked about earlier, because you might get investment returns, you could actually have more money save similar amounts when you die, even though you've been taking out the minimum at 4% And the evidence is, most people take out the minimum, either they think it's been a recommendation, yeah, or falsely believe or they're worried about running out. It's so confusing. So let's talk
Alex Brooks 50:11
about those, what I was calling them, annuity style products,
Stephen Huppert 50:15
and that's that's not a bad way. So so there's a whole range of innovative retirement products that have become available in Australia in the last five or six years, and they can hedge against this longevity, right? So there's always been products that could hedge against longevity risk, but they're the traditional annuity which are very much locked into prevailing interest rates when you purchase it.
Alex Brooks 50:37
And they used to be terrible products, as you said, they didn't beat inflation. And most people would just go,
Rachel Lane 50:44
why you're locking in. You're locking you're locking in an interest rate at the time you buy at the time that you buy it. And so obviously, when interest rates go up, you're not getting the benefit of of course, you're protected from the downside. But over the last sort of 10 or so years, interest rates haven't been particularly high. Unlike people who bought there in the last some of them are still getting, you know, 17%
Alex Brooks 51:11
dream, that'd be like a lottery. You mentioned,
Stephen Huppert 51:13
you mentioned inflation, you can buy them CPI linked, yes. So that's not so there's always features in the products that can mitigate some of those risks,
Alex Brooks 51:22
and is it good financial advisors that you need to seek advice about these? From? Who do you go to? If that super fund isn't doing a good two parts
Stephen Huppert 51:30
to that, where do you go? So what we've seen is a whole lot of new products being launched, correct by mostly life insurance companies, but a couple of super funds, and these could be called lifetime income products, investment linked annuities. One of the big challenges is the naming convention. And globally, there's a whole lot of weird names that are used for these products. But fundamentally, these new products that have launched in the last five or six years, they what we we describe them as unbundling investment risk and longevity risk. So when you bundle them together, the life insurance company needs to be very cautious about the money they've guaranteed to you, and they've got to hold a lot of capital support that guarantee. So they're not they're quite expensive products, okay, if you unbundle and so these new products only protect against longevity,
Rachel Lane 52:22
okay, not investment market risk. So
Alex Brooks 52:25
and you, and that's the other, the great decouple.
Stephen Huppert 52:27
But you can, you can choose how much of risk or not risk you want on the investment component. So they're quite complex. Yeah, a couple of the life insurance companies that offer them will only offer them through a financial advisor. Oh, okay, but a couple of super funds now offer them either with or some without an advisor, but with sort of guidance tools. And we're seeing a lot of super funds have flagged that over the next four to five years, there'll be more of these products available, partly because the regulator saying to super funds, you got to do more about helping retirees. You've got to do a better job. And that's been a constant call.
Alex Brooks 53:06
All right, so I'm going to try and wrap this up now. I want each of you to think about the one thing someone in their 50s should be thinking about today, for their retirement, for the future, just one thing. What would you say that
Stephen Huppert 53:19
is start planning early, no and and understanding that retirement is not one dimension.
Alex Brooks 53:29
And you've talked about this because you're saying you need to, even when you get there, you need to review it every couple of years, 100%
Stephen Huppert 53:36
because circumstances change. So it's something that's really hard to boil down to one thing apart from plan, and it's multi dimensional, there's health, there's home housing, there's financial, there's there's physical. I mean, all those dimensions are important, yeah, exactly. And get advice, and that doesn't need to be financial advice, which cost you $5,000 there are different what. So it could be retirement coaches, it could be aged care specialists. It could be your super fund. Super funds are getting better at offering guidance,
Alex Brooks 54:09
and there is a way now, and I checked this with Asfa, you can actually ask your super fund whether it's like a regular old regulated fund, like an aware or Australian retirement trust or whatever. You can get specialist financial advice or personalized financial advice, because I know I'm going to ruin the words, and you've already whatever we want to call it, but you can get the special, the personalized financial advice, and it can be deducted from your balance before you've reached the requirement, but you're still paying for it. Still payment exactly, but you're not paying for it out of your today's money that you're trying to earn money
Stephen Huppert 54:43
with, well, you're paying it
Alex Brooks 54:44
out of your super fund. That's correct.
Rachel Lane 54:46
So that's no longer earning money in your super fund. Sometimes people think that money in Super is free, yeah, I know, and it's still money that you spend. I think the trick with financial advice is to ask. Ask. Not, not what is the price of the advice, but what is the value of the advice. Okay, so if I'm going to pay $5,000 for advice, what value am I going to get from that advice? And the easiest way to do that is to compare that advice with what you would have done had you not got advice. Okay, what I call the Do Nothing scenario, and that way, the financial advisor should be able to show you that you are far better off than the advice fee itself by taking the advice. Because financial advice is about more than choosing investments. It's also about how do you structure it? How much do you put into a lifetime income stream? How much do you keep in your account based pension? How much do you keep in your own investments? How does that impact on your age pension? There's, you know, there's so many different places to it, but that, that is where I would start, because sometimes people get very hung up on the cost. That's financial advice. I get hung up on that. Get hung up on the value of that advice that's
Stephen Huppert 56:02
coming back to, you know, what are the one or two key things? If I'm
Rachel Lane 56:06
I love how you've doubled that
Alex Brooks 56:07
he's naturally,
Stephen Huppert 56:10
if I'm looking at from the other side, from the financial advisor or from a super fund perspective, what, what are people approaching retirement looking for? Yeah, and I think what they're looking for is confidence and knowing they'll be okay. I totally, totally, so that is critical in that relationship, whether that relationships with a super fund or a financial advisor, the key item it's not about optimizing, it's not about focusing on wealth only it's am I confident that I'll be okay?
Alex Brooks 56:40
That's exactly right. And interestingly, with the 12,000 people who've just lost superannuation in the in the first guardian and shield collapse, I mean, it's a terrible tragedy for those people, but what does that really mean for our Australian super system? Are things going to change?
Stephen Huppert 56:55
So I mean, on that, it is tragic. We don't know exactly the root cause, yet, there's a lot of there's a mixture of negligence and fraud and misconduct on different parties. It's only a small number I know. If I'm one of if you're one of the 12, it's only one person. That one person has tragic so I agree.
Rachel Lane 57:18
Overall the number, it's more than a billion dollars?
Stephen Huppert 57:21
Yeah, the Australian superannuation system is pretty robust. Okay, so if you're and these people were slightly on the margins because they were doing things, probably not realizing what they were doing, which were
Alex Brooks 57:35
riskier because they weren't in regulated super funds, are in self managed, no, no,
Stephen Huppert 57:40
even, even regulated funds, but then the investments were off in non superannuation products. It gets quite technical so but for the 90, even 99% of Australians that are in large, regulated super funds, the industry funds, the big retail funds, it's an incredibly robust system, but unfortunately, it's very hard to legislate against misconduct
Alex Brooks 58:01
and fraud, correct? And what's your one thing that someone in their 50s today, that I know Stephen pinched it, what? What should they take away?
Rachel Lane 58:10
Look, I don't think realistically, anyone in their 50s is planning for what their 90s are going to look like. I think it's important that you have a plan for each chapter and make sure that that plan is going to help you achieve what your objectives are. So if it's in your Go, go years, make sure you've got a plan that enables you to go, go, yeah, understanding that you're going to need money at the end of that for you go slow and your no go. So make sure that you've got a plan that you can revise as need be. And I think one of the big mistakes a lot a lot of retirees make that I see is that they are frightened of market volatility and scary. I get it, and they retire, but it's almost like they retire and they think that death is imminent, yes, right? And the reality is that they retire and their money, their savings, whether it's superannuation investment, whatever it might be, they're probably going to have to work for them for another 20, 3040, years. Absolutely. So if you rush to defensive assets, and sometimes when I say these people say, Oh, we should all go out and buy shares, that's not what I'm saying. But I'm just saying if you rush to put all of your money into defensive assets like cash and fixed interest, cash and fixed interest over 20 or 30 or 40 years will not be your best friend. Okay, so you've got to think about, what are your investments? What is your appetite for risk? Make sure that you have money there for when markets go down, because guess what, they will. Markets go down. Even the property market goes down. No one wants to hear about it, but it's true, right? Markets go up and markets go down. That's just the reality of markets. So make sure you have money set aside so that you're not having to crystallize those losses, and then have a plan that you can. Review and make sure that it is achieving what what you want it to achieve at each chapter,
Stephen Huppert 1:00:05
I really like that. Have a plan and review it regularly. Yeah, you're looking for something concise, okay?
Rachel Lane 1:00:11
And that'll give you more confidence. Yeah, that's our joint statement. Our joint statement. Have a plan and review it regularly.
Alex Brooks 1:00:18
That's all that matters, as long as there's one that gives you confidence, that's what matters. And that's a wrap from the midlife shift. Thank you, Stephen and Rachel.